Master or Apprentice - 3 of Pentacles and 8 of Pentacles

[Tom]

I learned Tarot originally from Eden Gray.  She said that the 3 of Pentacles was the Master--which makes sense to me because only a highly accomplished sculptor would get to do cathedral arches.  She said the the 8 was the Apprentice, that makes sense to me too as he's manufacturing the same item over and over to hone his craft.

 

What definitions do you use for these two cards? 

[November]

Hello, for me it's the opposite: in the 3 Pents I see an Apprentice while in the 8 Pents I see a Master (if I'm not mistaken this is also how Rider Waite interpreted the cards, but I may remember wrongly). 

 

I think it depends on how the cards communicate to you: if for you the 3 Pents works as the master card and the 8 Pents as the apprentice one, here's their meanings for you. 

[Misterei]

11 hours ago, Tom said:

I learned Tarot originally from Eden Gray.  She said that the 3 of Pentacles was the Master--which makes sense to me because only a highly accomplished sculptor would get to do cathedral arches.  She said the the 8 was the Apprentice, that makes sense to me too as he's manufacturing the same item over and over to hone his craft.

To me 3 pents is definitely work at a higher level whilst 8 pents is more drudgery and grind.

Master vs. apprentice? I blur these lines.

I might associate both 3 pents or 8 pents with students and school ...  but generally I take 3 pents as students and 8 pents as a job. Likewise 3 pents is a team project at school whereas 8 pents might have to do with your financial aid or work-study.

[DanielJUK]

In Waite's Pictorial Key, he said about the cards.....

 

Eight of Pentacles

An artist in stone at his work, which he exhibits in the form of trophies. Divinatory Meanings: Work, employment, commission, craftsmanship, skill in craft and business, perhaps in the preparatory stage. Reversed: Voided ambition, vanity, cupidity, exaction, usury. It may also signify the possession of skill, in the sense of the ingenious mind turned to cunning and intrigue. Source

 

Three of Pentacles

A sculptor at his work in a monastery. Compare the design which illustrates the Eight of Pentacles. The apprentice or amateur therein has received his reward and is now at work in earnest. Divinatory Meanings: Métier, trade, skilled labour; usually, however, regarded as a card of nobility, aristocracy, renown, glory. Reversed: Mediocrity, in work and otherwise, puerility, pettiness, weakness. Source

 

I think in modern reading, people often read using numerology, the minors develop in number towards ten (complete). I know that is how I would have read this. For example a crafts person sets out to learn creative skills (one), they study and learn (two), they have their first job to show their learnt and practised skills (three). We see in Three that he talks to those Church people, it has always looked to me that he is looking for encouragement and feedback. So he has a lack of confidence with this big job and consults people who know what the window should look like. By the Eight, the geezer is mass-producing by himself and refining his skills. The creation in the Three is a more important and grand job, stonemasonry, over metalworking. Although making perfect coins and displaying them is also maybe important, at least to him. He is going it alone in the Eight, his confidence and skills are improving.

 

I think I will have to think about these both further now 🙂 

 

[Tom]

My personal experience is that if the 8 of Pentacles reversed showed up in a reading about learning a new profession that the person would not make enough effort for them to be successful at it. 

Edited February 26, 2024 by Tom

[Yola]

Hey @Tom, how are you?

 

On 2/25/2024 at 2:40 PM, November said:

Hello, for me it's the opposite: in the 3 Pents I see an Apprentice while in the 8 Pents I see a Master (if I'm not mistaken this is also how Rider Waite interpreted the cards, but I may remember wrongly). 

 

Indeed, according to Waite's own definition, 3 is an Apprentice while 8 is a Master.
But I confess that I can't see it that way. On the contrary. And I will try to explain my reasoning... Take whatever is useful to you!
See that in 8 the worker is sitting on a bench (a lower place). It seems to me that there is someone who is learning something, practicing a skill. It's the "10 thousand hours" to become a professional at something.

While in 3 - note that it even looks like the same piece of furniture - the character is on it, standing (assuming higher positions). I see this as a way of representing his mastery. Visually, I get the impression of expertise on the 3. There is very precise detail in the carving of the large foundation. A solid, robust work. It also seems to me that this professional is teaching others.

It doesn't make sense numerologically. Only on a visual level.

I hope it's useful!

 

[Raggydoll]

On a spiritual level, I can see why Waite considered the 3 to be the apprentice. He is not working for himself; receiving specific instructions and needing approval. The 8 does show repetition, but it’s almost a trance like state and as far as we know, he is doing the work for himself, by himself. Spiritual work could be seen in that solitary, repetitive manner. It is all about inner alchemy and not about outer achievements or academic/social acknowledgement. 

[akiva]

I always thought that 8 of Coins was the apprentice, so I double checked the PKT and it says this in the description for the 3 of coins:

 

"A sculptor at his work in a monastery. Compare the design which illustrates the Eight of Pentacles. The apprentice or amateur therein has received his reward and is now at work in earnest."

 

Does this not mean the guy in the 8 of coins who's carving small items has been promoted to an actual sculptor?

 

In the PKT at the end of the divinatory meanings for the 8 of coins Waite mentions that the skills in craft and business are "perhaps in the preparatory stage". So maybe the guy is stuck carving stone Pentacles because he's learning his craft through repetition?

 

It seems weird that it's backwards (doesn't fit the progression of 1-10) but Waite drew a lot of inspiration from Ettiella, and for the 3oP Etteilla uses keywords like "renown", "fame" and "important". Which is similar to Waites keywords "renown" and "glory". So is it possible the guy in the 8 of coins is now renowned for his work and is a master sculptor?

 

This all fits with how you see it @Tom as only someone renowned for their work would be allowed to carve such important religious structures 😁

[DanielJUK]

Just realised, we have two of the same threads going on this. I was sure I posted about the PKT view from before and was like, where are my posts?

How about we merge them, How do people feel? Some views will be repeated but we are now repeating in 2 separate threads

[FindYourSovereignty]

I recently was having a conversation with someone about the apprentice and the master or someone that has great length of time doing their craft. It is how I naturally relate to and work with the 3P and the 8P. For me, the 3P is the apprentice that is passionately learning and through this learning they give extra special attention to their talent, gift or interest. They have ideas, inspiration, and the desire to work meticulously to provide an end product that is valuable and impressive. The 8P has been doing the work for so long that they can do this in their sleep, they are able to mass produce their output, and may even just be waiting to retire; while waiting are putting out as much product as they can.  He could also be feeling like he has been ‘put out to pasture’ while the younger ones are coming into his field with new sparks of ambition, ideas, and abilities. Yes, he has mastered his craft, but is he still passionate? Is he training or teaching and passing on his knowledge? Or is he just keeping himself busy or doing what needs to be done?

 

[Nemia]

I see neither of them as master. 

 

For me, the Three is an apprentice, learning from others who have more experience, and he's a good apprentice so they let him try the hard stuff. Threes are about growth and development, so mastership doesn't fit. Knowing what I do about how cathedrals were built, this young man probably didn't chisel the tracery by himself. Building a cathedral was teamwork (another key point of this card), and somebody else made the arch. He's just showing that he knows to fit it in perfectly. That would be my storyline. 

 

The Eight is the journeyman. Apprenticeship is over, now it's time to prove that you can do consistent work. It will take some time until this guy reaches the Master stage - probably, the man on the Ten of Coins is a Master, but we see him at home. The journeyman is self-confident but still has to do the bidding of the master. 

 

Somehow, the three stages of medieval vocational training (apprentice, journeyman, master) make a lot of sense to me. In my native country, vocational training is influenced by this model until this day. 

[DanielJUK]

I've merged the two threads on the same topic together, there might be some similar posts as they both had simultaneous discussions going. I deleted 2 posts which were the same in each thread 🙂 .

We can continue this discussion in this one thread here, makes it easy to follow.

[DanielJUK]

I was sending someone to Thirteen's meanings a few days ago and noticed this great take on the Master / Apprentice idea from Thirteen on AT -

Three - https://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/three-of-pentacles.shtml

and the Eight - https://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/eight-of-pentacles.shtml

[Flegetanis]

On 2/25/2024 at 11:26 AM, Tom said:

I learned Tarot originally from Eden Gray.  She said that the 3 of Pentacles was the Master--which makes sense to me because only a highly accomplished sculptor would get to do cathedral arches.  She said the the 8 was the Apprentice, that makes sense to me too as he's manufacturing the same item over and over to hone his craft.

 

What definitions do you use for these two cards? 

 

 

There is some Masonic significance here, as Waite himself points out. The key feature of the 3 of Pentacles is the worker who, at this moment, has Passed from an Apprentice to a Fellow of the Craft.The Master Crafstmen, or Architects, look on in judgement, comparing the work to the design.

Edited March 3, 2024 by Flegetanis
additional illustration

[FindYourSovereignty]

2 hours ago, Nemia said:

The Eight is the journeyman. Apprenticeship is over, now it's time to prove that you can do consistent work. It will take some time until this guy reaches the Master stage - probably, the man on the Ten of Coins is a Master, but we see him at home. The journeyman is self-confident but still has to do the bidding of the master. 

I can see this. Thank you for sharing. 
 

21 minutes ago, DanielJUK said:

I was sending someone to Thirteen's meanings a few days ago and noticed this great take on the Master / Apprentice idea from Thirteen on AT -

Three - https://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/three-of-pentacles.shtml

and the Eight - https://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/eight-of-pentacles.shtml

Thank you. This is an enlightening read. 😊

[Flegetanis]

5 hours ago, Nemia said:

I see neither of them as master. 

 

For me, the Three is an apprentice, learning from others who have more experience, and he's a good apprentice so they let him try the hard stuff. Threes are about growth and development, so mastership doesn't fit. Knowing what I do about how cathedrals were built, this young man probably didn't chisel the tracery by himself. Building a cathedral was teamwork (another key point of this card), and somebody else made the arch. He's just showing that he knows to fit it in perfectly. That would be my storyline. 

 

The Eight is the journeyman. Apprenticeship is over, now it's time to prove that you can do consistent work. It will take some time until this guy reaches the Master stage - probably, the man on the Ten of Coins is a Master, but we see him at home. The journeyman is self-confident but still has to do the bidding of the master. 

 

Somehow, the three stages of medieval vocational training (apprentice, journeyman, master) make a lot of sense to me. In my native country, vocational training is influenced by this model until this day. 

 

Indeed. The Master has the designs in the Three, but the workman is the Apprentice being Passed. The Journeyman, or Fellow, in the Eight is the same craftsman, literally working on his Masterpiece, the dictionary definition of which is, in this context: "a piece of work by a craftsman accepted as qualification for membership of a guild as an acknowledged master."

Edited March 3, 2024 by Flegetanis

[Tom]

TT&M Family.  I’m sure that Eden Gray based her interpretations on The Pictorial Key to the Tarot with a good helping of her own personal insights.  Angie Green who I think is a good teacher has said, “There’s no right way to read the tarot, there’s no wrong way, only your way.  I will stick to my own distinctions in this case as it’s the way I feel makes most sense to me, regardless of Numerology—which I need to study.  I have some general numerology meanings in a Tarot book I have read.  I have found that it’s been helpful when reading with the Folk Cards of Destiny Oradle.  

[Flegetanis]

On 3/7/2024 at 4:34 PM, Tom said:

TT&M Family.  I’m sure that Eden Gray based her interpretations on The Pictorial Key to the Tarot with a good helping of her own personal insights.  Angie Green who I think is a good teacher has said, “There’s no right way to read the tarot, there’s no wrong way, only your way.  I will stick to my own distinctions in this case as it’s the way I feel makes most sense to me, regardless of Numerology—which I need to study.  I have some general numerology meanings in a Tarot book I have read.  I have found that it’s been helpful when reading with the Folk Cards of Destiny Oradle.  

 

Agreed. While I actually use a lot of Qabalistic & Hermetic correspondences while studying the deck for other purposes, in actual readings everything becomes very subjective, very quickly. Two books I personally recommend just for exploring the Tarot to find your own meanings are

 

The Tarot of the Magicians, by Oswald Wirth

 

and

 

The Mystical Tarot, By Rosemary Ellen Guiley

 

Edited March 10, 2024 by Flegetanis