Barleywine Posted August 21, 2019 Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) The wreaths on the 6 of Wands are laurel wreaths, symbolic of victory. About the leafy oval on the World card, Eden Gray says: "The wreath symbolizes Nature on her regular course, and also the crown of the initiate" (Waite called it the Crown of the Magi), "which is given to those who master the four guardians and thus enter into the presence of unveiled Truth." The "crown" idea does repeat, and it may be a matter of degree as far as significance, but I've never noticed any obvious commonality between them. There is certainly a sense of completion in both cards, but I've always considered the World as more final and the 6 of Wands as fleeting. (I never did trust the looks of those guys in the background). Edited August 21, 2019 by Barleywine
Raggydoll Posted August 21, 2019 Posted August 21, 2019 The main connection is that Pamela used the wreath as a symbol for a victorious blissful feeling. A wreath is a universal symbol and she used plenty of those throughout the deck to emphasize the underlying message. Some of those symbols will have been more obvious and common in those days than they are today though, like the mourning bracelet on the Queen of swords or the lepers bell on the 5 of pentacles. One has to remember the times and the circumstances for when this deck was created. Today we might consider a fat paycheck or many Facebook likes to be the equivalent of a laurel wreath when it comes to success, but back then things were quite different 😉
Raggydoll Posted August 21, 2019 Posted August 21, 2019 20 minutes ago, Barleywine said: The wreaths on the 6 of Wands are laurel wreaths, symbolic of victory. About the leafy oval on the World card, Eden Gray says: "The wreath symbolizes Nature on her regular course, and also the crown of the initiate" (Waite called it the Crown of the Magi), "which is given to those who master the four guardians and thus enter into the presence of unveiled Truth." The "crown" idea does repeat, and it may be a matter of degree as far as significance, but I've never noticed any obvious commonality between them. There is certainly a sense of completion in both cards, but I've always considered the World as more final and the 6 of Wands as fleeting. (I never did trust the looks of those guys in the background). Yeah, I definitely would consider 6 of wands as a more fleeting success, more in the “15 minutes of fame” category than something you should bet your life savings on. I guess it’s because his success is measured by others and not like in the World card where it’s on a highly personal level. People are fickle and social currency tend to be the same. And I ask myself - if that guy just had his staff, his wreath and his horse - but no one to witness him - would he still feel as victorious or accomplished?
Katie Posted August 21, 2019 Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) ...and is the World with its' two wands in her hands related to 2 of wands (or suit of wands)? I guess not but I've been thinking about those 2 wands since I got the World in a spread the other day. Katie Edited August 21, 2019 by Katie
Cookie Posted August 21, 2019 Posted August 21, 2019 No, probably not @Raggydoll it's all pomp & circumstance & ego I suspect. I like this card, it reminds me of the Olympics. I've always wondered why it's called the sexual conquest card & I think I've just worked out why. Is it because the wand & the wreath symbolise male & female genitalia?
Grizabella Posted August 21, 2019 Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) Spoiler T What's that stupid spoiler thing there. I can't get rid of it, whatever it is. Anyway, this post of yours made me laugh out loud, John. It could very well depict what happened to me in that post I just made in the chatter room. https://www.thetarotforum.com/forums/topic/7825-supercalifragilisticexpealidocious-crud-crap-poop-puppy-vomit half dressed and moving fast.[/url]What a way to start the day. But at least I have hot coffee and a good sense of humor. OK I've tried three or four times to get the underline off there and the url link typed in right and can't do it and I can't get rid of the spoiler thing, but hopefully it will all work right for you. Edited August 21, 2019 by Grizabella
Saturn Celeste Posted August 21, 2019 Posted August 21, 2019 19 minutes ago, Cookie said: Is it because the wand & the wreath symbolise male & female genitalia? Oh now that's a thought! I rather like that idea.
Raggydoll Posted August 21, 2019 Posted August 21, 2019 23 minutes ago, Cookie said: No, probably not @Raggydoll it's all pomp & circumstance & ego I suspect. I like this card, it reminds me of the Olympics. I've always wondered why it's called the sexual conquest card & I think I've just worked out why. Is it because the wand & the wreath symbolise male & female genitalia? Sure. And what greater sign of success is there than to be crowned with a vagina wreath? 😁
Raggydoll Posted August 21, 2019 Posted August 21, 2019 27 minutes ago, Katie said: ...and is the World with its' two wands in her hands related to 2 of wands (or suit of wands)? I guess not but I've been thinking about those 2 wands since I got the World in a spread the other day. Katie If you feel that there’s some significance there for you, then it could well be an intuitive sign you’re picking up on. I would definitely not ignore it. You noticed it for a reason and it really doesn’t matter what the artist intended or not, what matters is the unique context of your reading. As far as the two wands on the world card, I see that as a reference to the Magician. Since the fool sits outside and inside of all the majors, then you have the magician with his one wand on the one end and the world dancer with her two wands on the other.
Katie Posted August 21, 2019 Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Raggydoll said: As far as the two wands on the world card, I see that as a reference to the Magician. Since the fool sits outside and inside of all the majors, then you have the magician with his one wand on the one end and the world dancer with her two wands on the other. Yes yes yes!!! That is SO cool! (And the fool too has a wand, though over his shoulder). Katie Edited August 21, 2019 by Katie
JohnLetter Posted August 21, 2019 Author Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Katie said: ...and is the World with its' two wands in her hands related to 2 of wands (or suit of wands)? I guess not but I've been thinking about those 2 wands since I got the World in a spread the other day. Katie It's not the same wand what is in world card imo. It's the same Magician wand what have the Magician in hand. So I think it's more related to him. btw- till now I always saw just other wands at 6ow but just today I saw their faces too lol. I think that one is a winner because he has knowledge of this "world" at his wand. Edited August 21, 2019 by JohnLetter
fire cat pickles Posted August 21, 2019 Posted August 21, 2019 Responding along with @Barleywine and riding on his coattails a bit... I don't think we should confuse a crown of laurels in the 6 of Wands with an evergreen wreath in the World. Let's not forget that the World contains the Four Gospels. This is a completely different concept. There is a lot of Christian symbolism in this deck. It's important to leave a symbol in its context before we pull it out and compare it to other symbols in other cards. Something can look the same and actually be quite different. (The fingers in the Devil and Hierophant come to mind.) Another thought, 6 of Wands is Jupiter and World is Saturn...
JohnLetter Posted August 21, 2019 Author Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Cookie said: I've always wondered why it's called the sexual conquest card & I think I've just worked out why. Is it because the wand & the wreath symbolise male & female genitalia? I was like: But now I get what you mean lol! Never though of It that way! @Cookie Do you think combo of those two cards can be like "I'm coming for your virginity/wreath"? 😄 Edited August 22, 2019 by JohnLetter
Raggydoll Posted August 22, 2019 Posted August 22, 2019 7 hours ago, fire cat pickles said: Responding along with @Barleywine and riding on his coattails a bit... I don't think we should confuse a crown of laurels in the 6 of Wands with an evergreen wreath in the World. Let's not forget that the World contains the Four Gospels. This is a completely different concept. There is a lot of Christian symbolism in this deck. It's important to leave a symbol in its context before we pull it out and compare it to other symbols in other cards. Something can look the same and actually be quite different. (The fingers in the Devil and Hierophant come to mind.) Another thought, 6 of Wands is Jupiter and World is Saturn... I agree that it’s good and important to remember context. But I feel like there’s two layers to these kind of comparisons. Certainly, we might not always be highlighting things that ever was intended by the creators or that they would even agree on, but we might still find symbols and patterns that hold meaning to ourselves and the context of our reading. I think that reflection and meditation are two important techniques at discovering layers of synchronicities and symbols that speak to us. And yes, those wouldn’t necessarily ever be part of the general understanding of a card or its ‘traditional’ interpretations but it does not make them any less valid on our own journeys. And while evergreen and bay laurel definitely is not the same, they are both shaped into the ancient symbol of a wreath. Hence they share somewhat of a kinship (and we will get back to that kinship later in a quiet where Waite actually talks about different kind of wreaths and that they do share an important, and intended, connection). It’s a bit like all the eternity symbols in this deck. A lemniscate is not the same as an ourobourus, but still they share a kinship in being representations of the infinite. And thanks to Paul Foster Case and his mentioning of the very first (unpublished) draft of the pictorial key, we know that Waite liked to place recurring symbolism to explain and hint at the deeper connections between cards. This will probably be most common in the majors since those where his main concern, but also the minors carry a special connection according in the way they seem to reference the Grail Hallows (here I am referring to the work Mary Greer has done on this topic). For those that haven’t seen the text that Paul F Case quoted, I will add it below. It was edited out of the final version of the Pictorial Key, probably because it revealed too much of the deeper meaning and Waites intended connection between the Fool and the Sun card. Like @fire cat pickles pointed out, there are lots of religious connotations here and Waite clearly saw the Fool as representing Christ. From (my own well used copy of) Paul Foster Cases, The Tarot - A key to wisdom of the ages: (‘the child’ is referencing the child in the Sun card)
Cookie Posted August 22, 2019 Posted August 22, 2019 9 hours ago, Raggydoll said: I agree that it’s good and important to remember context. But I feel like there’s two layers to these kind of comparisons. Certainly, we might not always be highlighting things that ever was intended by the creators or that they would even agree on, but we might still find symbols and patterns that hold meaning to ourselves and the context of our reading. I think that reflection and meditation are two important techniques at discovering layers of synchronicities and symbols that speak to us. And yes, those wouldn’t necessarily ever be part of the general understanding of a card or its ‘traditional’ interpretations but it does not make them any less valid on our own journeys. And while evergreen and bay laurel definitely is not the same, they are both shaped into the ancient symbol of a wreath. Hence they share somewhat of a kinship (and we will get back to that kinship later in a quiet where Waite actually talks about different kind of wreaths and that they do share an important, and intended, connection). It’s a bit like all the eternity symbols in this deck. A lemniscate is not the same as an ourobourus, but still they share a kinship in being representations of the infinite. And thanks to Paul Foster Case and his mentioning of the very first (unpublished) draft of the pictorial key, we know that Waite liked to place recurring symbolism to explain and hint at the deeper connections between cards. This will probably be most common in the majors since those where his main concern, but also the minors carry a special connection according in the way they seem to reference the Grail Hallows (here I am referring to the work Mary Greer has done on this topic). For those that haven’t seen the text that Paul F Case quoted, I will add it below. It was edited out of the final version of the Pictorial Key, probably because it revealed too much of the deeper meaning and Waites intended connection between the Fool and the Sun card. Like @fire cat pickles pointed out, there are lots of religious connotations here and Waite clearly saw the Fool as representing Christ. From (my own well used copy of) Paul Foster Cases, The Tarot - A key to wisdom of the ages: (‘the child’ is referencing the child in the Sun card) yes, @Raggydoll this is very interesting. I've never made this connection but it makes total sense as for the Qabbalists the first movement down the Tree from God (Kether) is the 11 path & this path is given to The Fool. So God's purest emanation and representation that we can comprehend is Christ (The Fool). They also believe that the sun is God's physical representation on earth hence the similarities between the Fool & the sun-boy in The Sun card. The only other two cards to 'touch' God on The Tree is The High Priestess which represents Christ Consciousness & The Magician which receives the power of God. But the Fool is the nearest to God.
JohnLetter Posted August 22, 2019 Author Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) 21 hours ago, Barleywine said: The wreaths on the 6 of Wands are laurel wreaths, symbolic of victory. About the leafy oval on the World card, Eden Gray says: "The wreath symbolizes Nature on her regular course, and also the crown of the initiate" (Waite called it the Crown of the Magi), "which is given to those who master the four guardians and thus enter into the presence of unveiled Truth." The "crown" idea does repeat, and it may be a matter of degree as far as significance, but I've never noticed any obvious commonality between them. There is certainly a sense of completion in both cards, but I've always considered the World as more final and the 6 of Wands as fleeting. (I never did trust the looks of those guys in the background). So that man knows more than the rest and this makes him more successful than they are. 21 hours ago, Raggydoll said: The main connection is that Pamela used the wreath as a symbol for a victorious blissful feeling. A wreath is a universal symbol and she used plenty of those throughout the deck to emphasize the underlying message. Some of those symbols will have been more obvious and common in those days than they are today though, like the mourning bracelet on the Queen of swords or the lepers bell on the 5 of pentacles. One has to remember the times and the circumstances for when this deck was created. Today we might consider a fat paycheck or many Facebook likes to be the equivalent of a laurel wreath when it comes to success, but back then things were quite different 😉 lol I don't think these things like likes are not important for people, miss old pre-internet times when friendship was °1. 20 hours ago, Raggydoll said: Yeah, I definitely would consider 6 of wands as a more fleeting success, more in the “15 minutes of fame” category than something you should bet your life savings on. I guess it’s because his success is measured by others and not like in the World card where it’s on a highly personal level. People are fickle and social currency tend to be the same. And I ask myself - if that guy just had his staff, his wreath and his horse - but no one to witness him - would he still feel as victorious or accomplished? I think that guy has his own target and he is not checking left/right side. He has something what they have not - knowledge of this world. He has intuition and certainty that he will get what is coming for as winner. 19 hours ago, Grizabella said: Anyway, this post of yours made me laugh out loud, John. It could very well depict what happened to me in that post I just made in the chatter room. https://www.thetarotforum.com/forums/topic/7825-supercalifragilisticexpealidocious-crud-crap-poop-puppy-vomit half dressed and moving fast.[/url]What a way to start the day. But at least I have hot coffee and a good sense of humor. OK I've tried three or four times to get the underline off there and the url link typed in right and can't do it and I can't get rid of the spoiler thing, but hopefully it will all work right for you. Just read your post lol, glad I made you smile! btw- don't you have a photo of that scene with fog? 🙂 19 hours ago, Raggydoll said: If you feel that there’s some significance there for you, then it could well be an intuitive sign you’re picking up on. I would definitely not ignore it. You noticed it for a reason and it really doesn’t matter what the artist intended or not, what matters is the unique context of your reading. As far as the two wands on the world card, I see that as a reference to the Magician. Since the fool sits outside and inside of all the majors, then you have the magician with his one wand on the one end and the world dancer with her two wands on the other. I see also this as related to The Magician card. 18 hours ago, fire cat pickles said: Responding along with @Barleywine and riding on his coattails a bit... I don't think we should confuse a crown of laurels in the 6 of Wands with an evergreen wreath in the World. Let's not forget that the World contains the Four Gospels. This is a completely different concept. There is a lot of Christian symbolism in this deck. It's important to leave a symbol in its context before we pull it out and compare it to other symbols in other cards. Something can look the same and actually be quite different. (The fingers in the Devil and Hierophant come to mind.) Another thought, 6 of Wands is Jupiter and World is Saturn... I'm not seeing any christian symbolism at 6ow. 10 hours ago, Raggydoll said: I agree that it’s good and important to remember context. But I feel like there’s two layers to these kind of comparisons. Certainly, we might not always be highlighting things that ever was intended by the creators or that they would even agree on, but we might still find symbols and patterns that hold meaning to ourselves and the context of our reading. I think that reflection and meditation are two important techniques at discovering layers of synchronicities and symbols that speak to us. And yes, those wouldn’t necessarily ever be part of the general understanding of a card or its ‘traditional’ interpretations but it does not make them any less valid on our own journeys. And while evergreen and bay laurel definitely is not the same, they are both shaped into the ancient symbol of a wreath. Hence they share somewhat of a kinship (and we will get back to that kinship later in a quiet where Waite actually talks about different kind of wreaths and that they do share an important, and intended, connection). It’s a bit like all the eternity symbols in this deck. A lemniscate is not the same as an ourobourus, but still they share a kinship in being representations of the infinite. And thanks to Paul Foster Case and his mentioning of the very first (unpublished) draft of the pictorial key, we know that Waite liked to place recurring symbolism to explain and hint at the deeper connections between cards. This will probably be most common in the majors since those where his main concern, but also the minors carry a special connection according in the way they seem to reference the Grail Hallows (here I am referring to the work Mary Greer has done on this topic). For those that haven’t seen the text that Paul F Case quoted, I will add it below. It was edited out of the final version of the Pictorial Key, probably because it revealed too much of the deeper meaning and Waites intended connection between the Fool and the Sun card. Like @fire cat pickles pointed out, there are lots of religious connotations here and Waite clearly saw the Fool as representing Christ. From (my own well used copy of) Paul Foster Cases, The Tarot - A key to wisdom of the ages: (‘the child’ is referencing the child in the Sun card) Thanks for these book quotes! I think it takes very long time when you will know how to read those cards. Often I realize some things a few days after. Or something happen and if I think of those cards back, that context fits to thing what happened. Anybody here- is still available somewhere RWS cards 1st press from early 20th century? --- I checked out his crown and he is probably enlightened. (Reminded me kind Julius caesar lol) Edited August 22, 2019 by JohnLetter
Grizabella Posted August 22, 2019 Posted August 22, 2019 The mist is on my website, John. The link is in my signature. Is that what you mean?
Raggydoll Posted August 22, 2019 Posted August 22, 2019 @JohnLetter I guess that someone could see the scene where Christ has his triumphal entering into Jerusalem, riding the donkey, as reminiscent of the 6 of wands. But you’re right in that there aren’t and obvious Christian symbols (not to me anyway, but I’m not a Christian so that’s not really my area of expertise 🙂)
Grizabella Posted August 22, 2019 Posted August 22, 2019 Ooops, I thought that was the 8 of Wands. Trust me not to pay attention. lol The World and 8 of Wands is what I was thinking of with regard to my soggy day yesterday.
JohnLetter Posted August 22, 2019 Author Posted August 22, 2019 Just now, Raggydoll said: @JohnLetter I guess that someone could see the scene where Christ has his triumphal entering into Jerusalem, riding the donkey, as reminiscent of the 6 of wands. But you’re right in that there aren’t and obvious Christian symbols (not to me anyway, but I’m not a Christian so that’s not really my area of expertise 🙂) Do you think is he coming to home?
Raggydoll Posted August 22, 2019 Posted August 22, 2019 Just now, JohnLetter said: Do you think is he coming to home? I think that it’s very possible that the rider in the 6 of wands is returning victorious to his home town and being celebrated among his friends for his achievements.
JohnLetter Posted August 22, 2019 Author Posted August 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, Raggydoll said: I think that it’s very possible that the rider in the 6 of wands is returning victorious to his home town and being celebrated among his friends for his achievements. World card is also related to traveling.
Raggydoll Posted August 22, 2019 Posted August 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, JohnLetter said: World card is also related to traveling. Not in the way i see it. I see it more as arriving; fulfillment on every level.
Eric13 Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 ...in the 6 of Wands, like the dichotomy of any leader, being one, the second he shows weakness his followers along side him, will oust him.
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